Curse

madman24749 · May 01, 2007, 09:12 AM // 09:12

In my opinion none of the mesmers skills should be changed
But some new spells would be nice

Definetly something to spread hexes and maybe a few AoE spells
None of the mesmers spells are broken so like someone said before they shouldnt be fixed
And if a spell was made to spread hexes it should definetly be put into fast casting so mesmers benefit the most from it

=DNC=Trucker · May 01, 2007, 10:05 PM // 22:05

I'm still waiting for the fast casting enchantment you can cast on target other ally...

Themis · May 03, 2007, 07:57 PM // 19:57

Avarre, i'm extremely impressed by the length of your analysis.

But, unfortunately, I don't agree with plenty of it.

So you seem to say that PvE groups need Healers, Tanks and massive DD ? And that's all ? So, no need for Asns, neither Rits, nor P, nor Mesmers ? I believe it's a black-and-white vision of the PvE world. It's not my vision anyway. This is the common (pickup) reality. It's not my GW reality and it will never be.
Illusion was dead with Factions ? I certainly missed this news. My Illusion spells have never worked as well since Factions. A third of them are Faction skills. I've gone through NF successfully with them. They're great for Hard Mode !

You seem to say that Eles are doing more damage than illusion skills ? Well, perhaps. I don't consider damage as a simple minus something in enemies' health bar, so ... i won't agree with you. But i understand your point of view. Especially since that change in monsters' AI.

So, imo, turning Mesmers into DamageDealers (as some seem to propose) by increasing the efficiency of their damage spells is not an improvement. It's an alienation.

To be short, my PvE experience doesn't reflect the reality you're describing. We're still playing the same game, i know. Simply not the same way.

That's what i like about Mesmers, Paragons and other "secondary" classes : they allow me to play in a non-conventionnal way. That's what i like about GW : the ability to be different. And i hope that Mesmers will never become a "normal" class.

Painbringer · May 03, 2007, 08:59 PM // 20:59

Quote:

Originally Posted by =DNC=Trucker

I'm still waiting for the fast casting enchantment you can cast on target other ally...

You have that lovely celestial skill in Factions lol

But honestly a spell like 10 sec target ally gains the benefit of your current fast casting attribute, during this time you lose the benefit of fast casting. This would be cool.

Personally I would like more supportive party skills a couple good enchantments maybe a hex that can be triggered by another ally? More skills that help a party as a whole than solo target skills. Add more fast casting skills, and increase some skills requirement to minimum level 4-5 or a 50% chance failure. Imagine this on power drain, leech signet, or channeling? How many Non-Mesmer characters would have to make changes on there characters or heroes skill bar.

fool-of · May 03, 2007, 11:52 PM // 23:52

Here's ArenaNet's Description lest we forget what a Mes is supposed to be -

"The Mesmer is not content with living in reality—Mesmers prefer to create their own realities. Mesmers are the mental masters of illusion, control, and domination, subverting an enemy's Energy for their own purposes and supporting the entire party in battle with powerful, mind-bending magic. Domination skills put Mesmers in command of a foe's Health and Energy, while Illusion can inflict damage, slow an enemy, and drain away the powers of those that oppose them. The Mesmer can call on Inspiration to steal Energy directly from the opposition, and the primary Memser attribute Fast Casting works just like it sounds—you can sling your spells at a much higher rate than any other profession. The Mesmer is powerful as a damage-dealing spellcaster, a support player, or both. They should usually avoid the front lines, but can turn the tide of most any fight in seconds."

1. inarguable fact - "mesmer is too specialised. Interrupts limited to spells were ok while we had a distinction between fighters and casters. But new classes now include 2 hybrids and rituals. Initially we had enchants, hexes and conditions, where mesmer, monk and necro had overlapping abilities. Now we have rituals (no spells), weapon enchants (can't touch), chants and refrains, and each new chapter will probably bring another one or two new concepts"

I agree completely with this statement - my mes is definitely NOT a MASTER of illusion, control and domination any more. Was I really ever anyway?

2. "Whew. That's what I've been trying to say for quite a while. I've been trying to play a Mesmer and use Mesmer heroes lately (in PvP) but it isn't working. Why interrupt a spell at a large cost with a crappy recharge when you can get a ranger that interrupts anything, does damage, and can keep spamming it? Or heck, just get an Ele to cast meteor shower or use any other number of KD spells, which double as a handy 2-3 second blackout too. Or throw a warrior on them with disrupting chop. In terms of shutdown, Mesmers are obsolete."

Again, I concur. Why does every other profession have something that should be a mes'? Somewhere in this thread someone mentioned that the mes doesn't need to be re-tooled. True. Every OTHER profession does to keep their hands off of what should be a mes' territory. Jack of All, Master of None...which winds up being just jack because you can't squeeze ALL into 8 skill slots nor does the way the attributes stack up allow for it. Even if you could theoretically be a jack of all...who want's that in their party when you CAN have the master of damage dealing or healing or tanking or shutting down or...not the pugs i've seen. I think in 2 years of playing i've had a total of 3 people say...glad we have a mes in our party. Give us something of our own and let us keep it our own. What's that? You did? Ah yes, fast casting...

Fast Casting
(Primary) This primary attribute lets the Mesmer cast spells more often and for greater overall effect than any other profession.

More often? No. I get to spam my high energy spells so fast nobody else can do anything to stop me MUUUUAHAHAHAHAHA...oh wait, i'm outta energy, their skill has recharged and now i'm getting pummeled. Sweet, my skill has recharged...dang, still don't have enough energy (or vice versa).

We get to create our own realities? How? Pray tell. I get to pretend i can run fast...only to be crippled when it's over? Sweet.

Don't pander to my idea of superiority in the area of energy stealing...I don't get to steal my enemies' energy...i may get to deny them theirs but in doing so, i lose mine. (yes yes i know energy tap and drain, try building up enough in inspiration to make them useful and see what else you can do...nothing)

Back in beta, my first character was a mes. My current character is a mes. I don't enjoy playing any other character more than a mes. In fact, I enjoy playing every other character LESS than a mes. A lot less. I love the idea ArenaNet came up with but their implementation is a bit lackluster yet for some reason i still play it...it's fun...for me.

In a game of paper, rock and scissors ArenaNet came up with a new and exciting addition. Only problem is we have to show what we're going to throw down before the other person does. (Pretty bad allusion so i'll explain it...if you choose the mes, you're just *that* much at a disadvantage).

I'm done ranting now.

Mostly happy, sometimes disgruntled Mes

Illuminator · May 04, 2007, 05:57 AM // 05:57

Marry me, Fool-Of!!!!

I concur with Fool-Of and I also use Illusion magic and it isn't dead, it's just you that doesn't know how to use it properly.

fool-of · May 04, 2007, 06:05 PM // 18:05

A-llusion. Not I-llusion. I was making an allusion of GW to the game of rock paper scissors...

LouAl · May 04, 2007, 11:09 PM // 23:09

Quote:

Originally Posted by Nalia

...The damage increase was already proven and shown. Please review the data and see for yourself, the power comes from multiple target proccing and is reflected as such. I would be more than happy for someone to post some proofs showing otherwise....

well, here you go then.

I made some assumptions to simplify the calcluations (because I am lazy). Here is the scenario

Necro with 16 in Curses vs. Mesmer with 12 in Curses

Assumptions
Necro casts in 2 seconds, Mesmer casts in 1 second
SS Recharge is always 10 seconds (as opposed to using a faster recharge mod)
Both have only SS on their bar (this is to simplify the process, but the result is the same if you add other spells as well).
Both have enough energy to cast SS everytime it is available.
Both have a supply of enemies that trigger SS once per second for the full duration of the hex (again to simplify the process but the effect is the same).
SS only hits one enemy at a time and all SS hexes are applied to different foes at a great enough distance to allow for only hitting themselves with the hex damage (for simplification, but it is obvious that more foes being hit will exaggerate the difference).

So, here is the "math:"

Necro and Mes both start casting at 0

@ 11 seconds SS N has done 333 dmg and SS Me has done 290 dmg
@ 20 seconds SS N has done 888 dmg and SS Me has done 754 dmg
@ 30 seconds SS N has done 1,517 dmg and SS Me has done 1,247 dmg
@ 1 minute SS N has done 3,478 dmg and SS Me has done 2,639 dmg...a difference of 839 in favor of the Nec
@ 2 minutes SS N has done 7,363 dmg and SS Me has done 5,423 (+1,940 toward Nec)
@ 3 minutes SS N = 11,248, SS Me = 8,207 (+3,041 toward Nec)
@ 4 minutes SS N = 14,133, SS Me = 11,049 (less than the SS N at 3 min and + 4,084 in favor of the Necro)
...
@ 12 minutes SS N = 46,213, SS Me = 33,466 (+12,747 in favor of the Nec. Also, the Nec hit 34,588 in 9 minutes and it took the Mes, with FC, another 3 minutes to get there).

But what about Arcane Echo? well I did that too:

Same set of assumptions (except that now both also have AE on their bar)

and what we find is that the Mes has a slight advantage near the beginning-

@ 11 seconds N=444, Me=493 (-49)
@ 13 seconds N=592, Me=609 (-17) Mes begins casting another round of SS
@ 15 seconds N=740, Me=812 (-72) Nec begins casting another round of SS
@ 20 seconds N=1332, Me=1392 (-60)
@ 21 seconds N=1480, Me=1479 (+1)
@ 25 seconds N=2072, Me=1740 (+332)
@ 30 seconds N=2590, Me=2175 (+415)
@ 45 seconds N=3922, Me=2900 (+1022)
@ 53 seconds Nec begins again with AE
@ 56 seconds Mes begins again with AE (because of fast casting, Mes was able to get one more full cycle of SS before AE recharged)
@ 60 seconds N=4847, Me=3683 (+1164)
...
@ 100 seconds N=8806, Me=6554 (+2252)

Take from that what you will, but I would say (and I think most ppl already knew this more or less) that going Me/N for SS does not really help you unless your fights are all under 21 seconds long and then you have significant down time before the next fight.

To get these numbers I used the above assumptions and then put everything in a spreadsheet with the casting times and durations and then just summed the data at different time intervals. Pretty simple, but like I said, I am a bit lazy. Also, I wuld have put this stuff up earlier (right after Nalia's post), but I had a busy few days at work and didn't have time.

As for the state of the mesmer, I am not completely satisfied in the changes brought about by HM, but it has made my mesmer somewhat desirably in PvE, and for that I am happy.

Avarre · May 05, 2007, 05:30 AM // 05:30

Quote:

Originally Posted by Themis

So, imo, turning Mesmers into DamageDealers (as some seem to propose) by increasing the efficiency of their damage spells is not an improvement. It's an alienation.

Not what I proposed either - giving mesmer capable damage results in imbalance in having shutdown/damage in a single line. What I would prefer is the structure of PvE to be more conducive for Mesmer styles of offence - a good example are early-game hard mode areas (Ascalon), where offence is mixed and based on the skillbar more than direct amplified mob strength.

Quote:

I concur with Fool-Of and I also use Illusion magic and it isn't dead, it's just you that doesn't know how to use it properly.

I've heard this alot. It's kind of like the 'learn to counter' argument people who don't PvP use against PvP balance proposals.

Thermoblaze · May 05, 2007, 09:23 AM // 09:23

I was yesterday doing mission in HM.
The our group was Monk,Wariior.Monk and Mesmer.
I just kept on my eye what skills Mesmer is using.
He used Enphanty etc.
I saw that he is powerful then Warrior.
So now i want to make new charahter but i don't know which proffesion to use.
Ranger or Memser??
Can you give me some advices and infos about mesmer in PvE?
Ty

Redfeather1975 · May 05, 2007, 09:53 AM // 09:53

Black Knight, playing a mesmer is more fun if you have quick reflexes and a sadistic side to you.
Quick reflexes are where you'll have the most effect in interrupting and quickly identifying what person to 'pick on' in any given second of a fight.
I never had more fun than this one fight I picked on a poor ele so bad, I got mouthed off to for quite some time afterwards. So yeah, you need to be take please in frustrating people. lol

Terra Xin · May 05, 2007, 12:08 PM // 12:08

Quote:

Originally Posted by Avarre

giving mesmer capable damage results in imbalance in having shutdown/damage in a single line

You mean like a ranger interrupter already has?

Mesmers haven't even been defined in-game. They are rivaled as a shutdown class, and while semi-rivaled as an e-denial class, it is entirely defunct in PvE. At the moment, it's just sexy looking clothes and outspoken people keeping this profession alive. You can improve PvE all you like, the other classes will adapt to the situation just as - if not more effectively - than the mesmer class would.

Besides, anyone who can use a single knockdown skill can become a suitable replacement for the Mesmer - and then some.

Anet needs to take deeper steps into what actually makes a Mesmer; while they spend time improving the profession in PvE. I hope that every step that they discuss upon is productively and positively worthwhile.

frojack · May 05, 2007, 02:14 PM // 14:14

Judging by the Hard Mode nonsense which was thoroughly 'tested' for 'months', I wouldn't hold my breath for any kind of decent offering.

GW2 or bust...

Redfeather1975 · May 05, 2007, 04:07 PM // 16:07

Well I hope GW2 keeps the sexy looking clothes at least.
Then I'll play a mes again.

And I hope GW2 has fencing swords. That is all.

fool-of · May 07, 2007, 05:39 AM // 05:39

1. Make Skill Recharge Times directly proportional to points in fast casting (maxed = halved)
2. Take shutdown and e-denial away from all other classes and make that the mes' unique ability
3. Fix pve to be "smarter"

All have been addressed in this thread and I really do think all are achievable. A mes doesn't need aoe...that's an ele's job, high damage ranger (ranged) and war (up close and personal) monks have their roll and so do necros. I won't address the classes added with factions and nightfall because i'm pissed at how they seemed to add 2 professions whose skills a mes can't touch as previously mentioned. Again, they made a unique SOUNDING class but in reality the only uniqueness to it is it's inablity to pve and being the jackED of all trades (paragons may fit this title as well but as I haven't played them I can't say).

Quote:

Originally Posted by Terra Xin

Anet needs to take deeper steps into what actually makes a Mesmer; while they spend time improving the profession in PvE. I hope that every step that they discuss upon is productively and positively worthwhile.

I second the motion. Motion passed.

=DNC=Trucker · May 07, 2007, 11:20 PM // 23:20

I'm not trying to be offensive or anything, just a recommendation you guys discussing the SS Nec vs. Mes could create a new thread? I am kind of interested in the findings of that as well, just too off topic in this thread.

nevelo · May 08, 2007, 09:16 AM // 09:16

If fast casting also had an effect on recharge time or some sort of e-managment included, then mesmers might actually become a worthwhile primary. At the moment, other classes do the same thing, usually better, and have better e-management to boot.

<-- Notice I have a Me/N. I rationally know that I would be much better as a necro... but I'll be damned if I hate the model with the crippled back.

P.S. Wtf is up with skills like spiteful spirit and maelstorm NOT being mesmer skills (many more where that came from)? Come on!

P.P.S. If half the skills on the inspiration line are suppose to be a mesmer's form of e-management... Wtf are they not part of the primary attribute? It's already bad enough that you have to devote attribute points AND part of your skillbar for no other purpose then e-management, when so many other classes get their effects passively. Soul reaping, adrenaline, leadership, mysticism, expertise, energy storage, critical strikes all involve a means of energy management which work in conjunction with skills that don't specifically have to do with e-management. It's like a joke on top of an insult.

mmorpg man · May 09, 2007, 12:43 PM // 12:43

[QUOTE=nevelo]If fast casting also had an effect on recharge time or some sort of e-managment included, then mesmers might actually become a worthwhile primary. At the moment, other classes do the same thing, usually better, and have better e-management to boot.
QUOTE]

completely true. all the other profession gain energy from their primary attribute either directly or indirectly. here is how I would like the fc to be like

fast casting - for each rank in this attribute your spells cast 4% faster and you 2 energy every time you use a spell that targets foes.

It would also be logical (imo) to allow the mesmer to cast spells while moving. that would be awsome.

and finally I would quite like to see a big change to the illusion magic spells. first of all what is an illusion? its an immagined object that people can see. therefore instead of the crappy degen and crippling type spells, the mesmer should have spells that change the appearance of the environment and enhance the mesmer's effectiveness in battle. After all Anet describes the mesmer as "not content with living in reality" (guild wars factions manuscripts) so therefore let the mesmer change the appearance of the environment. this would give the mesmer something that no other profession can do as all our other jobs can be done more effectively my the other profession.

Nalia · May 09, 2007, 03:36 PM // 15:36

Quote:

Originally Posted by LouAl

...
@ 11 seconds SS N has done 333 dmg and SS Me has done 290 dmg
@ 20 seconds SS N has done 888 dmg and SS Me has done 754 dmg
@ 30 seconds SS N has done 1,517 dmg and SS Me has done 1,247 dmg
...

What is the series of formulas used? Did you use the same formula laid out in my post or derive your own? It would be helpful to show the formula itself so your results can be checked by non-biased parties.

LouAl · May 09, 2007, 07:47 PM // 19:47

As was stated above, this doesn't really belong here except as a proof that using a mesmer as another class does not solve any mesmer related problems(although, that is not to say you can't do so...just for fun).

I did not use your formulas because you added in other skills and that doesn't make sense when trying to figure out which class causes more damage with SS. A full explanation of what I did is here. Any followup should probably be there as well.